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Posted: **January 5th, 2022, 11:48 am**

Think your digital setup is about equal with your vinyl setup? There seems to be a growing segment of folks who feel that a decent digital setup is about as enjoyable as a decent vinyl setup, me included. Not so much convergence as parity. Over the holidays, I spent some time organizing/consolidating my LP collection in a new shelving setup. Now they are all sorted in one large unit (with a lally post in the basement underneath the joists) and much more accessible. This resulted in in a full week+ of pure vinyl listening, no streaming at all.

Going to back to streaming this week has been an eye opening experience. There is just no comparison, my vinyl rig sounds FAR more alive and enjoyable. Streaming music sounds fine on the surface, nothing seems to be missing.....except it is not nearly as fun. It sounds (feels?)...... lifeless and artificial.

Switching routinely between streaming and vinyl had always revealed my slight preference for vinyl but I told myself that streaming was almost as enjoyable. Years of listening this way confirmed my impressions, to the point that the majority of my listening was from streaming. A full week of one without the other has revealed the startling gulf between the two formats. So, try a full week of nothing but vinyl (no cheating). Allow your brain and ears to adjust to the sound of vinyl, preferably AAA mastered recordings. Then go back to streaming and prepare yourself...... :sad-roulette:

Posted: **January 5th, 2022, 12:13 pm**

TubeDriver wrote:Think your digital setup is about equal with your vinyl setup? There seems to be a growing segment of folks who feel that a decent digital setup is about as enjoyable as a decent vinyl setup, me included. Not so much convergence as parity. Over the holidays, I spent some time organizing/consolidating my LP collection in a new shelving setup. Now they are all sorted in one large unit (with a lally post in the basement underneath the joists) and much more accessible. This resulted in in a full week+ of pure vinyl listening, no streaming at all.

Going to back to streaming this week has been an eye opening experience. There is just no comparison, my vinyl rig sounds FAR more alive and enjoyable. Streaming music sounds fine on the surface, nothing seems to be missing.....except it is not nearly as fun. It sounds (feels?)...... lifeless and artificial.

Switching routinely between streaming and vinyl had always revealed my slight preference for vinyl but I told myself that streaming was almost as enjoyable. Years of listening this way confirmed my impressions, to the point that the majority of my listening was from streaming. A full week of one without the other has revealed the startling gulf between the two formats. So, try a full week of nothing but vinyl (no cheating). Allow your brain and ears to adjust to the sound of vinyl, preferably AAA mastered recordings. Then go back to streaming and prepare yourself......

Right on Brother!! I've put in as much time on the bench improving my digital playback (CD) as I have LP playback -- there have been times where there was a contest -- but for the most part the vinyl just delivers the breath-of-life to playback that even my best CDs just can't quite get. And don't get me started on streaming. An audio buddy, with a lot of brag regarding streaming, hooked up his stuff to my system and we did a shoot-out with the same recording -- Streaming vs. CD. it wasn't even a contest. Again when visiting another friend I got him to go from from streaming to CD then LP. Once again no contest. If he wishes to "hear" what his system is capable of his LP playback will provide that insight.

Posted: **January 5th, 2022, 1:03 pm**

I am about 50-50% vinyl and digital, but usually, the digital is reserved for background while I am working at the computer or workbench. My sound room is in the basement and my graphic/web design computer is in the same room as well as one of my workbenches.
Most of my digital is streaming either from Qobuz or an over 10TB library on a NAS.
I have a top-of-the-line Sony SACD/DVD/CD player from the early 2000's that I have compared many times with the streaming music off the NAS and the differences are so small they are not worth discussing. Comparing a CD played on the Sony or Ripping it to the library via the music server, which I have done many times lets me believe the ripped files are a bit better only because of what may be the better sounding BP DAC. The Sony has a SPDIF out as well as audio outs and I do run the SONY SPDIF into the BP DAC', SPDIF input. Unfortunately, the Innous music server only has a USB output.
There is somewhat less liveliness with the Qobuz over the NAS files. My Music server is the Innous Zenith and my DAC is the NOS BorderPatrol SE-1.
My vinyl rig is a Sota Nova vacuum hold-down table with an Alphason HRS 100 tonearm with a Shelter cartridge. Phono preamp is a Transcendent Sound phono into a Bob's device's SUT. The phono preamp is waiting for a PS upgrade designed by Gary Dewes of BorderPatrol.
I get equal enjoyment from either source and proudly show off both and will not get into a discussion of which is better because they are so different.

Posted: **January 5th, 2022, 1:59 pm**

Pelliott321 wrote:I have a top-of-the-line Sony SACD/DVD/CD player from the early 2000's that I have compared many times with the streaming music off the NAS and the differences are so small they are not worth discussing. Comparing a CD played on the Sony or Ripping it to the library via the music server, which I have done many times lets me believe the ripped files are a bit better only because of what may be the better sounding BP DAC. The Sony has a SPDIF out as well as audio outs and I do run the SONY SPDIF into the BP DAC', SPDIF input. Unfortunately, the Innous music server only has a USB output.

Just a note. Comparing the Sony either direct or through its S/PDIF output to the streaming I expect would be equal. Direct you are at the mercy of Sony's compromised DAC and output stage and through the digital output you are at the mercy of the pulse transformer, its RCA output connector, and whatever RCA-to-RCA interconnect you are using. Even XLR AES/EBU connections are variable and I have found that pulse transformers can be improved with damping resistors. Yet overall --my experience has demonstrated that the AES/EBU connection is superior along with quality CD playback. As far as my S/PDIF playback is concerned, my 75-ohm connections are true 75-ohm BNC and I have access to HD video-quality 75-ohm interconnects. It still doesn't compete with AES/EBU. Then of course there is our very old friend vinyl. However, I do go the extra DIY mile such as "greening" the laser drive to limit spurious reflections off the disc media. That mod alone is a remarkable improvement. Damping the pulse transformer (aka. galvanic isolation) also improves matters.

Posted: **January 5th, 2022, 2:59 pm**

Pelliott321 wrote:I get equal enjoyment from either source and proudly show off both and will not get into a discussion of which is better because they are so different.

Well, you did just did. My point is that switching between sources daily masks some of the differences., ie quick comparisons hide differences. I did not intend this to become a component pissing match, suffice to say that both my analog and digital paths are high end if not SOTA. I also greatly enjoy both analog and digital sources but there is no harm in declaring that one sounds better or provides more enjoyment, I really don't understand why this gets you bent out of shape?

Posted: **January 5th, 2022, 3:57 pm**

TubeDriver wrote:
Pelliott321 wrote:I get equal enjoyment from either source and proudly show off both and will not get into a discussion of which is better because they are so different.

Well, you did just did. My point is that switching between sources daily masks some of the differences., ie quick comparisons hide differences. I did not intend this to become a component pissing match, suffice to say that both my analog and digital paths are high end if not SOTA. I also greatly enjoy both analog and digital sources but there is no harm in declaring that one sounds better or provides more enjoyment, I really don't understand why this gets you bent out of shape?

I differ on one point. It has been proven on many visual, hearing, and taste comparisons that long times between samples reduces the brain's ability to distinguish differences. It has also been shown that with long times of sampling that the brain adapts to what is being presented and tends to make that the new normal.

Posted: **January 5th, 2022, 5:06 pm**

Tom, as a practicing neuroscientist, I am at least tangentially aware of the blinded listening test literature although I have not really followed it (I am not an AES member). I think that quick comparisons probably help to differentiate differences but may not be the best way of determining long term listening satisfaction or enjoyment?

I have been working from home for the last 2 years and basically my stereo system is on from morning to night except for zoom meetings and when I was needed onsite. So I have spent a lot of time listening to my system. I happily stream music all day long and enjoy having access to 70 million+ tracks. I still enjoy it. On the surface, my digital system sounds great, full range, tonally accurate, full of detail, low distortion, very dynamic etc. Switching between analog and digital reveals that they present differently, in most ways the digital sound would be considered better? But my intention was never to equate my impression with some type of blinded listening test. In short, listening to one format for an extended time and switching might provide insight that is not gained by quick snapshot comparisons. Its simple, try listening to analog for a week, then switch back to digital and see what you think? If you don't do analog, then don't worry about it. But if you are one of those people who thinks digital is about as enjoyable as analog (and I was one of those people), it might be an eye opening experience.

PS: If I had to choose between only digitally streaming 70 million tracks or only listening to my ~1000 jazz LPs for the rest of my life, I would pick streaming because I love the variety. But I would miss how analog sources make me feel when I listen to them.

PPS:

tomp wrote:
TubeDriver wrote:
Pelliott321 wrote:I get equal enjoyment from either source and proudly show off both and will not get into a discussion of which is better because they are so different.

Well, you did just did. My point is that switching between sources daily masks some of the differences., ie quick comparisons hide differences. I did not intend this to become a component pissing match, suffice to say that both my analog and digital paths are high end if not SOTA. I also greatly enjoy both analog and digital sources but there is no harm in declaring that one sounds better or provides more enjoyment, I really don't understand why this gets you bent out of shape?

I differ on one point. It has been proven on many visual, hearing, and taste comparisons that long times between samples reduces the brain's ability to distinguish differences. It has also been shown that with long times of sampling that the brain adapts to what is being presented and tends to make that the new normal.

Posted: **January 5th, 2022, 6:18 pm**

I agree on both points. As I said, speed helps detecting differences, not "quality". One of the biggest errors many people make is the assumption that a double blind test will tell you which device is "better" The sole purpose of a double blind test is to determine whether or not a real difference exists. In no way should a value judgment being decided at that point in time. Also, if a difference is statistically found you can go to the bank with that and then proceed to decide which one you prefer. and generally over an extended period due to various conditions such as how much 18 year old Jameson Reserve you have had. :lol:

Not finding a difference in a particular test does not mean that under different test circumstances a difference would not be found. A null hypothesis is very difficult to prove.

Posted: **January 5th, 2022, 9:19 pm**

Pretty sure that 18yo Jameson Reserve is going to make everything sound better! :obscene-drinkingcheers:

tomp wrote:I agree on both points. As I said, speed helps detecting differences, not "quality". One of the biggest errors many people make is the assumption that a double blind test will tell you which device is "better" The sole purpose of a double blind test is to determine whether or not a real difference exists. In no way should a value judgment being decided at that point in time. Also, if a difference is statistically found you can go to the bank with that and then proceed to decide which one you prefer. and generally over an extended period due to various conditions such as how much 18 year old Jameson Reserve you have had. Not finding a difference in a particular test does not mean that under different test circumstances a difference would not be found. A null hypothesis is very difficult to prove.

Posted: **January 5th, 2022, 10:33 pm**

I don't have a vinyl setup worth spending too much time on. It's adequate for ripping the occasional rare LP but that's about it. Frankly, streaming/digital opens a whole new world for the classical-lover. I can lush out on some gooey Thalberg bon-bons, or a Kraus wind octet, or Theodor Currentzis doing wild things with Mahler, at a click of the mouse. Marvelous! And there are some very astutue young musicians who do astonishing things with CPE Bach or a Schubert trio.

But if I had a large jazz collection, that would be a different matter. Classic modern jazz (I mean the Blue Note/Prestige etc., era) has not been well served by digital, IMO. The depth and texture of the close-miked instruments doesn't quite translate well to digital, for some reason. So I can very much see your point, Pete. I wish I were 3000 miles east to have a listen with you. ;-)

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