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 Post subject: Re: August meet
PostPosted: July 25th, 2017, 5:33 pm 
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Joined: July 24th, 2015, 4:17 pm
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Location: Parkville, Maryland
How about one vinyl chunk? No programming -- no PC -- no heart burn -- etc. :character-oldtimer:

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 Post subject: Re: August meet
PostPosted: July 25th, 2017, 5:58 pm 
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DaveR wrote:
I want to apologize, you do understand how it works.


Dont worry about it.

I gave up on jPlay within a couple of hours although it sounded better than foobar2000. Inconvenience is too much for me to tolerate. You didnt share your impressions of jPlay.


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 Post subject: Re: August meet
PostPosted: July 25th, 2017, 6:01 pm 
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SoundMods wrote:
How about one vinyl chunk? No programming -- no PC -- no heart burn -- etc. :character-oldtimer:


Vinyl record will not last for a week in my house. I am too clumsy and lazy for Vinyl. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: August meet
PostPosted: July 25th, 2017, 6:10 pm 
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Posts: 488
DaveR wrote:
Cogito wrote:
HAL wrote:
Also an async USB DAC interface does the data transfer timing with it's internal clock, not the PC clock.


True, but that comes into picture only after the CPU and OS allocated time slot of the music server process, and and the music server tries to send a small chunk of data to the DAC. I do not know the size of streaming chunks used in ASIO. This is the issue I am trying to emphasize. NO matter how fast the USB is, CPU/OS and other processes running in the system will mess up the timing of the data stream.

For example if I am playing a 300MB DSD128 file which lasts 6 minutes, it could be sent to DAC is thousands of small data streams.

Further more, there should not be any other device on the USB for the controller to respond immediately (key word "serial"). If a mouse, keyboard, hard disk are working on the USB bus, the USB controller will accommodate each device by allocating the time slices.

That is why jPlay takes over the entire server disabling all unnecessary processes and keyboard, mouse etc when playing the music to dedicate max possible resources to itself.


I was happy to take this off-line, but...

I don't think you understand how audio data get transferred from the PC to the DAC. As you said, the data is sent in chunks, or packets. Enough is sent in each chunk to fill the DAC's buffer and keep the DAC busy until the next chunk is sent. Since audio streams are given a high priority in an OS since audio is one of those things that has to be serviced in a timely manner or it doesn't work well, regardless of what the PC is doing otherwise it will service the audio stream. Of course there can be exceptions, but you would hear the audio drop out if there were instances where there was no data available for the DAC to convert to audio.

Audio is slow to a computer, even a low powered PC should have no problem keeping up with anything audio. Keyboard and mouse inputs are even slower, and lower priority, and will not have any effect on audio. I'm using a Core 2 duo PC in my main system. Audio is stored on another PC in the house. I control the music PC using remote desktop. This fairly low powered computer manages to fetch the music over the LAN and feed it to the USB port or sound card and at the same time provide the remote desktop host to my laptop while I move the mouse around with no issues at all.

The fact that jPlay locks up the computer while something is playing is a non-starter for me. You can't pause or stop something playing? I control the volume through the PC, it's an external analog volume control. With jPlay I would not be able to adjust the volume while something is playing?


Then JPLay is not for you. :-) It's a "purist" player that uses JPlay's proprietary driver to cut through the OS to deliver the signal to the DAC. You can adjust various parameters *if* you feel they improve the sound.

I have tried--mightily--to get around the fact that different programs and OS's running on different computers can produce a different sound. But it's definitely the case as far as I am able to determine. It's true, to my ears, that a basic bit perfect player using an ASIO driver on a stock W10 install will sound the same as any other basic bit perfect player on that same computer. But not all players and OS's handle the data the same way, at least as far as I can surmise.


Last edited by Grover Gardner on July 25th, 2017, 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: August meet
PostPosted: July 25th, 2017, 6:17 pm 
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Joined: February 19th, 2017, 9:43 am
Posts: 531
Cogito wrote:
DaveR wrote:
I want to apologize, you do understand how it works.


Dont worry about it.

I gave up on jPlay within a couple of hours although it sounded better than foobar2000. Inconvenience is too much for me to tolerate. You didnt share your impressions of jPlay.


I didn't try it. The inconvenience it imposes wouldn't work for me.

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 Post subject: Re: August meet
PostPosted: July 25th, 2017, 6:49 pm 
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Joined: July 24th, 2015, 4:17 pm
Posts: 1704
Location: Parkville, Maryland
And yet you play around with static sensitive CMOS circuits. YIKES!

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 Post subject: Re: August meet
PostPosted: July 30th, 2017, 11:19 am 
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Joined: February 19th, 2017, 9:43 am
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If you're using ASIO, and likely other bit perfect protocols, you can very likely force the issue of the PC not being able to keep up with the audio. Just lower the latency until you start to hear issues, it will be obvious. In Foobar2000 you can do that through Preferences> Playback> Output> ASIO. Then double click on the ASIO driver your using and start lowering the latency. Play music, the higher the bit rate the easier it will be to cause issues. If necessary, start doing other things with the PC.

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 Post subject: Re: August meet
PostPosted: July 30th, 2017, 11:21 am 
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HAL (Rich) sent me a link to an explanation by XMOS of how USB Audio works. They provide a lot of DAC manufacturers with drivers, I believe they know what they are talking about.

http://www.xmos.com/news/articles/17888

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 Post subject: Re: August meet
PostPosted: July 30th, 2017, 7:51 pm 
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DaveR wrote:
HAL (Rich) sent me a link to an explanation by XMOS of how USB Audio works. They provide a lot of DAC manufacturers with drivers, I believe they know what they are talking about.

http://www.xmos.com/news/articles/17888


That article actually agrees with my statement. Being a manufacturer of xmos, they are talking only about USB communications, but they did elude to delays outside the USB bus...

Quote:
On top of this 250µs delay, extra delay may be incurred in the O/S driver, and in the CODEC. Note that Full Speed USB has a much higher intrinsic latency of 2ms, as data is only sent once in every 1ms window


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 Post subject: Re: August meet
PostPosted: July 30th, 2017, 8:03 pm 
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Joined: June 4th, 2013, 2:39 pm
Posts: 488
For those who are interested in trying a reasonably easy and fool-proof MPD player, I found a guide that actually wasn't too grueling and worked perfectly:

https://www.24bit96.com/usb-computer-au ... d-mpd.html

It's a few years old but I used the latest Debian Net installer and rt kernel without a problem. I opted to install SSH from the installer, then when the base install was done I logged in from a laptop with an SSH client and the instructions side by side. That way I was able to copy-and-paste the commands and conf file additions without doing a tone of typing. (You can paste in the terminal with a right-click. And "nano" is the default text editor.)

Usb-mount appears to be obsolete and I couldn't immediately figure out a replacement, but I didn't bother about it anyway. I also skipped the static ip stuff to deal with later, relying on A DHCP connection and a reserved address on my router.

I used his computer name (debianmusic) and user name (usbaudio) to make copy and paste easier. When it came to editing mpd.conf I used the installed version and just tracked his specified settings.

It sounds very good. It's open, spacious and *very* clean. I installed it on a little Azulle Byte Plus, a cute little $175 fanless mini-PC I got on Amazon. I mount the Azulle from my Mac Mini entertainment computer with smb, throw some albums into the "music" folder and fire up Theremin to play the music. It also works well with an MPD client on a pad. This is the first time that I *didn't* spend three days trying to get MPD to work--and failed. :-)

If anyone wants to try it feel free to ask for help. This is perfect for me because I don't want my WHOLE collection loaded, just some select listening for the evening. It's also nice because there are no network hitches with hi-res files, since it reads right from the main drive. And I checked--the output is bit perfect. Overall it was a pretty painless way to get familier with the elements of a basic MPD server and learn a little Linux stuff!


Last edited by Grover Gardner on July 30th, 2017, 8:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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